I may have mentioned that I’m currently working with kids and dogs for a living. Not together, though that would be my dream job. Teaching high schoolers how to row boats with dogs in them! How awesome would that be?! (Answer: Not awesome. Totally disastrous. Probably hilarious to watch, though.)
(click image for source)
One thing that you always deal with when working with kids and dogs is parents (yes, I am referring to the dogs’ owners as their parents. Either you totally get that or you don’t, and either one is fine, but please adjust your brain for the rest of this post. Thanks.). With both sets of creatures, it’s usually a really great thing to deal with the parents: they are excited to meet me, excited to talk to me, excited to hear about how their child or dog is doing (no, I will not refer to the dog as someone’s child. Thanks again.). The other thing you deal with is complete strangers.
When we’re rowing, it’s really not a big deal. We do a beach launch, so we carry these 200-pound, 60-foot long boats down to the water to a little beach that is right next to a playground. On a sunny day, this means there are a lot of spectators, especially little kids, who are SUPER EXCITED about WHATEVER IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN. Seriously, they don’t even know what’s about to happen, but they do know that it is VERY EXCITING. Usually, it’s pretty easy for me, Coach Bird, to tell these kids or ask the parents to tell the kids to please get out of the way because a very heavy boat is coming through and we would like for them to not get squished. Also, I have a walkie-talkie, so I look pretty important. And apparently I walk with a “coach swagger”, so people just do what I say. Kind of awesome.
me, being important and in charge. (photo by a team parent)
As a dog walker, I do not have a walkie-talkie or a coach swagger. I have something called the “chase me, dogs, I’m really exciting!” swagger, and it looks something like this: I run from one end of the park to the other, waving my hands and trying to seem exciting. The dogs chase me. I am successful. I am a good dog walker/playgroup supervisor.
When I’m not racing like a crazy person from one end of a field to the other, I am usually standing around talking to the other people at the park. These are other dog walkers or people who are taking their dogs out in the middle of the day. We talk about our dogs (duh), what kind they are, how old they are, and why it’s normal for Cooper to hump JoJo like that (it’s fine because JoJo tells Cooper when he’s had enough, and Cooper listens).
Daph and Fess (who is 1 year old and, wait for it... a GOLDEN-doodle. Seriously.).
But here’s what’s hard: hearing people’s ideas about how to raise/train/own their dogs. ALL THE TIME people tell me I’m good with the dogs, and do I watch The Dog Wh*sperer? And I wince and say no, I prefer the approach used in It’s Me or the Dog; honestly, I don’t really like the show but people who are asking about TV shows generally know what it is and that it’s different from Mr. Milan’s approach.
This is where the difference between coaching and dog walking comes up: when I coach, people just defer to me. They assume I’ve had a ton of training (I have! Like, eight weeks of it! Crash course in teaching high schoolers, fun!) and they assume I know what I’m doing (I finally learned how to drive the launch! Yay me!) and they regard me as an expert. I try to live up to that. When I walk dogs, people don’t assume I’m an expert… and, okay, I’m not an expert, but I have been working with dogs and reading about behavior and training for, oh, 23 years. That’s all.
me at age five or so. I had already talked my parents into getting my first dog by now. EXPERT.
What I can’t figure out how to do is summarize why I think Cesar Milan is so awful in just one or two sentences that I can pull out at the dog park. Someone talks about “calm dominant” or I see someone flip their dog on its back when it shows its teeth at another dog and I stammer something like, “Well, he has a few things right and they are that your dog is a dog not a person and it needs exercise and that’s pretty much it and also you should stay calm but don’t flip dogs! They only roll over by offering their belly or when they’re about to be killed and I learned that at a conference and also I’m really awkward. But I know things, really.”
Seriously, I panic. My heart starts pounding. I don’t want to have an argument with someone at the dog park about Cesar Milan but I also think that he wrong, and I hold that opinion based on years of watching his show, reading papers put out by behavior societies, and attending behavior conferences. I base my position on conversations with vets and on my own experiences with many dogs. I think that a lot of people are doing a lot of things wrong with their dogs because of some guy who has a lot of resources and the advantage of editing and can take advantage of people who want a quick fix, who want to believe that there’s some guy out there who can just walk next to an aggressive dog and *POOF* all better.
Here's what my fifteen-year-old, animal-hospital working self has to say to you, Mr. Milan.
I’ve been thinking about what someone said last week: “Okay, maybe Cesar is wrong about a few things, but I hate that Victoria Stillwell only uses treats. My dog should do what I want it to do because it loves me and wants to please me.” I get that, and was thinking about someone else’s counter to that argument that you wouldn’t do your job for free, right? No, but your relationship with your dog is not like your relationship with your job or with your boss. Even if you love your job, you don’t love it the way you love your dog. Your relationship with your dog is more like your relationships with friends or significant others, in terms of love and affection. But the thing is, your friends and significant other recognize the relationship, and the trade-offs you do to be happy in that relationship. You go to your friend’s part of town for dinner one week, they come to you the next week. If I cook dinner, Turtle will clean up; if I clean out the cat boxes, Turtle will feed the cats. Dogs don’t get this. They don’t get that love is a thing that can get you other stuff; they don’t understand that because you provide a home and food and affection, they should sit when you ask them to. You need to give them reinforcement for that, and reinforcement doesn’t have to be food; it can be affection, it can be simply looking at your dog. If your dog is jumping on you, turn your back and ignore it till all four are on the floor (that rhymes so it’s easy to remember); once they are, pet your dog! Give it some attention! You don’t need food to give it treats.
But I don’t say all that at the dog park. Instead I usually I stammer my awkward sentence up there and then go run down the field again.
Turtle and Daphne demonstrating the dog-walker "swagger"
Tell me what your thoughts are. Are you able to talk to other dog owners about training, or do you get flustered like I do? Would you ask someone else for advice with your dog? Would you step in if something looked wrong to you, or want someone else to step in if something looked wrong to them? How do you guys handle these things?
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Having volunteered for a Boxer rescue for the last three years, I have learned so many things that I now judge other people for doing. And they are things that I probably (definitely) used to do myself before I was “in the know.” I try to remember that when I feel myself starting to get agitated at the way someone is handling a dog situation, it’s not blantant disregard – it’s lack of education. Part of our job as volunteers is to discuss our policies and why we have them. It’s the why part that I always see the little light bulbs go off and people suddenly understand why shock collars are cruel, riding in truck beds is unsafe, etc.
So I guess to answer your question, I’ll chime in if there is an opportunity for it, because I really do believe that people would do it differently with a little education and reasoning. As far as seeing someone across the park and saying something, probably not, unless they were either harming the dog or I could visibly see that the dog was getting so worked up that there was about to be danger to the owner.
Cesar Milan is an idiot. When I was in vet school and taking a behavior class, we split into groups and each group analyzed a Cesar Milan show. Every single group came to the conclusion that his methods are inappropriate. Our group’s episode dealt with a dog that supposedly had separation anxiety. He never bothered to even attempt to diagnose the problem, so I’m not convinced that’s what was even going on. His treatment – short-leash walking, which involved him continually yanking on the leash while walking the dog. Needless to say, this will not treat separation anxiety. I’m also horrified by the idea of flipping a dog onto its back, as that’s nothing more than a really effective way to get bitten in the face.
When it comes to dealing with fans of Cesar, I simply explain that I believe strongly in positive reinforcement-based training and that the “nothing in life is free” strategy is more effective than his “pack leader” approach. I do not want my dog to fear me, and the strategies I choose to employ greatly increase the odds that I will not have an adversarial relationship with my pet.
I don’t think I can answer any of your questions but I do love what you have to say! Reading about your experiences with dogs here is always interesting for me as a new-ish dog owner (about 7 months now).
I love this statement from above ‘ You need to give them reinforcement for that, and reinforcement doesn’t have to be food; it can be affection, it can be simply looking at your dog.’ I fully believe in this, the dog trainer at Petco did not agree with me at all. I’m glad to hear I was right lol!!
Having Chessies…one of the MOST stubborn breeds on the planet…I can honestly say I would never flip one unless it was seriously angry and attempting to attack someone they shouldn’t. We use treats and rarely touch our dogs in a disciplinary manner. I always tell the people who buy our puppies to do a lot of research, talk to vets, and to call me if they need help.
I wouldn’t flip a child either….necessarily
Listen you, you know a crap ton about dogs and those other dog owners are LUCKY to have had the fortune of saying something misinformed to YOU, the EXPERT! Because now you can tell them the REAL way to train their precious pups. My strategy advice is for you to do it with a smile..and I know you have a great one. If they get mad about your well intentioned and well informed tips then they are silly silly people. I trust your advice over anyone’s and I only have a stupid cat!
good luck.
I also don’t have a very favorable opinion of Cesar Milan. I use a shock collar with one of my dogs and I often have to justify why we use it (no it does not hurt my dog, I have tested it on myself.) After doing EXTENSIVE research with shock collars and trying other modes of training with my dog, we finally resorted to using a shock collar and it has changed her, and our lives.
I don’t step in with other people training their dogs because I do not know what reason they have for training their dog that way. I think training modes depends on the breed and personality of the dog. Maybe Cesar Milan’s methods have worked for a lot of people, great for them they have a trained dog. We have one dog that responds to treats of all kinds and another that the shock collar is the only thing that has worked. I will be respectful if someone wants to share their opinion with me, but I don’t approach other people about how to train their dog. Not my business.
While I think that “different strokes for different folks” is a fine philosophy for some things, say if we are comparing fashion decisions or talking about what people are into in the bedroom, it’s hard to know where to draw the line with things like people’s treatment of one another, their children, or their pets. I believe that when we decide certain things “aren’t our business” we are potentially condoning abusive or damaging practices. When I saw my friend physically hit his dog with an object last summer, to reprimand the animal for poor behavior, I certainly didn’t think “not my business” and expressed some concern over his dog-rearing practice. He wasn’t happy to hear it and disagreed with me vehemently, but, had I stayed silent, I believe I would have been condoning a practice that most people would agree is cruel as well as ineffective. As a rape prevention educator I encourage youth and adults to “make it their business” when they see people treating others disrespectfully or inappropriately because that is the only way to fight against a culture that is supportive of rape attitudes and beliefs by blaming victims and refusing to hold perpetrators accountable. Even if speaking up doesn’t change a problematic behavior it at least breaks the silence; whether it be around sexual violence, child abuse, or animal cruelty.
As you said in your response the behavior of your friend to his dog was “cruel.” There is a difference between animal abuse and training dogs in different ways. I am not saying don’t step in if someone is beating their dog with a stick, but this post isn’t about how to respond to animal abuse. Of course I step in if I feel like the dog is in danger. However, if we are just talking about different modes of training that are not abuse to the animal than I do not feel like it is my business. Many people think shock collars are cruel. I, for one, think it is the best method to train my dog. She could have cared less about treats and I was not going to stand back and let my dog get hit by a car because she thinks it appropriate to run out the door whenever she gets the chance. I would rather use a shock collar than let her get hit by a car. I’m not condoning animal abuse, I’m condoning being non-judgemental.
This post was really interesting to me, and I relate to it, but I’ll be straight in my response: I don’t actually think there’s much of a way to effectively correct people’s behavior or beliefs in a brief, casual situation like chatting at the dog park.
I so understand where you’re coming from. I taught preschool throughout college, I taught middle school for three years after that, and now I have a master’s of education and am preparing to teach again. I feel like I know a thing or two about children. Not everything, of course–I would not call myself an expert–but it’s my field, and I feel confident in what I know. I also deal with parents a lot, and sometimes I see or hear parents do things or espouse beliefs that make my eyes nearly pop out of my head. I have had to bite my Internet tongue more than once from seeing statements on mommy blogs that I KNOW are just purely, flatly, conclusively wrong. Sometimes I’m just dying to leave a comment like, “listen, I’m just trying to help….” yet I don’t say anything.
I’ve come to learn that parenting (be it dog or kid) is a very, very personal thing, something that people hold very dearly to their hearts, and are generally trying their very hardest to do a good job at, even when what they’re doing isn’t really the most advisable way of going about things. I also think that when people are trying really hard to do what they think is right, they’re kinda likely to blow off advice that conflicts with their standard practices as irrelevant to them and their situation. You don’t know MY kid. You don’t know MY dog. I’m doing what works for US. Et cetera. So, I kind of suspect that even the friendliest and most diplomatic approach to “don’t flip dogs,” even if it’s met with smiles on the outside, might be heard with “but you don’t know MY dog, and flipping my dog works for me” on the inside.
So, this is getting pretty long and I’m also not sure if it makes sense because I’m trying to write it surreptitiously while I’m at work, but basically, my thesis is that unless your input (no matter how awesome it is!) is very sincerely and specifically requested, it probably won’t be “heard” very thoroughly. That’s been my experience in somewhat similar situations, anyway. So, my approach is that unless something sincerely endangering going on, I’ve gotta take a “different strokes for different folks” stance. (Partially for my own sanity, because speaking the truth and having it be shot down or ignored is frustrating.)
ha, your “important and in charge” swagger is awesome and cute! (i’m sure “cute” is not what i’m supposed to say about swagger, but…)
i’m pretty defensive in conversations about how i deal with my dogs, but that’s mostly because i only ever have those conversations with people who are *being assholes.*
like the woman who waited by my car to accost me about how clearly our dog was *about to die* because of our stupid neglect. concern is fine, but the courtesy to listen instead of scoffing and continuing to berate me would be nice. as it happens, my dog is brain damaged and twitches like that 24/7. also her tongue is a few inches too long for her mouth. i get a lot of misplaced concern on her behalf. my boy-dog will only accept water from strangers (not from me, no matter how often i offer it) when we are out. i’m assuming he does this out of spite to make me look bad
on the other hand, i *love* talking about dogs, and so i enjoy talking about dog training and care and such. i just think it’s important to do it in a way that is not judgmental (even if you are judging them). it seems like keeping it in the realms of either theory or personal experience are the best ways to do that. i also suspect you can get an “in” with folks by bringing up the one thing you do agree with milan about – that makes it look like you aren’t being a jerk and writing off something they may really like. (like, in the above example regarding love vs. treats, milan’s emphasis on dogs are not people is real relevant to the fact that your dog isn’t doing stuff just because it loves you like the people who love you might.)
okay. enough blabbering =)
Oh Cesar Milan . . . When I talk to people about training (and the people I talk to are my parents’ friends and they WORSHIP him) I generally use a comparison of the school system. Way back when it used to be okay to smack a kid’s hands or drag them by the ear and, yeah, the kids stopped doing whatever it was they wanted them to stop doing but they were resentful about it. They didn’t perform to the best of their abilities because they were afraid or worried they would do something wrong. Or in the worst case, they just didn’t try because “why should they if they’re just going to be hit/reprimanded”. That would be the Milan style — why should doggie walk nicely on a leash when he’s just going to get a rough leash pop for trying to sniff that patch of grass to find a place to pee?
Where as now teachers are placing more of a focus on encouraging and empowering the student to explore assignments and think creatively in order to help the student be the best person they can be. This would be positive reinforcement. Teachers don’t focus on One Bad Behaviour any more, they are starting to focus on setting students up or success and rewarding them thusly. Averages are on the rise (in my area anyway) because of this. People are staying in school, doing well, and actually /learning/ something.
A lot of the times I just get funny looks but there have been a couple of people who have actually started to listen to the differences positive reinforcement makes. It’s a slow process but, with all things, change will come. (another /fun/ dog trainer is Brad Pattison. Sort of the Canadian Cesar Milan. I would NOT take my dog aggressive pup out and just start introducing him to a hundred new dogs in a week. It would be a disaster! What about the lead up, the training, the encouragement to tolerate these other beings!)
I found this super interesting, as we recently (6 months ago now) got a puppy who was a lot more of a handful than the dogs I’ve previously had with my family. She was biting A LOT and harder than we were expecting so we turned to our (very reputable) breeder for help. She recommended flipping her and holding her down until she relaxed as apparently this is how the mom-dog would deal with bad behavior. We felt absolutely terrible doing this, but we weren’t having much success after many weeks of yelping “ouch”/ignoring her etc. So we did it a few times and it did seem to work, though it’s possible she was also out-growing it by then. I would never dream of doing it now, especially since I’ve read more since about how that’s really not an acceptable training method.
I think the Dog Whisperer can be fun to watch but only because I file it under ‘entertainment’ rather than instruction. I think he does have a way with dogs but I don’t think that he’s truly ‘curing’ most of them on any long-term basis (in fact half the time he seems to not even address the problem at all) and I don’t take his training advice with any more seriousness than I would take anyone else spouting off on a reality show. The problem is he wants us to, and has written a lot of books to demonstrate that.
(*nur, forgot to finish my thought on positive reinforcement vs. schooling)
It works the same with dogs, really, if you give them treats for being near to you, they’ll want to be close to you when walking because that is a rewarding place to be. You don’t have to give them treats every step, every couple of steps, or even on that walk. But if you’re petting your dog, talking to your dog, letting him occasionally go and sniff the tree that becomes the positive reinforcement. If you do what I want you to do, I’ll give you something you want too.
I never offer unsolicited advice. Mostly because I despise hearing it myself. If people at the dog park are chatting about how great CM or BP is, I’ll normally just not join in the conversation. It’s too awkward and I am terrible at confrontation. There is no point in saying something when I won’t be able to say it properly. They will just get annoyed and I won’t change any opinions. I try the “show not tell” approach. While they are struggling with leash corrections and alpha rolls, I will show off my dog’s excellent recall (hahahaha!) and heeling skills.
However, if I am asked directly for my opinion, I will give it. The best argument I have for positive reinforcement training (NOT treat-training) is that dogs need to be motivated to learn. No, dogs are not children, but sometimes it does help if people see their relationships with their pets a litte more that way. They give their kids allowances for doing their chores, right? If their kid passes a test, they reward them for their hard work, right?
Dogs need to have value for the things we ask them to do. They don’t know how to behave in the human world until we teach them. The best way to teach them is to reward them for doing something right. That’s how they learn.
Does that make sense? I also love to use the word “currency” as opposed to treat. Every dog is motivated by something different. My trainer’s pit bull is obsessed with rocks. Some dogs love balls or tug toys. Every dog is different.
Eventually, once this value has been built up, that’s when the love and bonding and mushy stuff happens. That’s when maybe your dog will sit because he loves you. But it’s pretty hard to expect that from the very beginning.
Now I’ve rambled… This probably hasn’t helped at all, I’m sorry.
Hello there!
I do not often offer unsolicited advice. I mostly chime in when dealing with my parents or people who I am close to that I know I can truly see my point through to the end.
I also find myself giving this advice to Laur (and she to me) when we are in situations with Charlie that have clearly maxed out our stress threshold; “Be calm, honey!” “She’s being good, treat her!”. Sometimes you need a little moral support!
I guess I agree with some of the previous comments- as infuriating as it can be to see a dog owner doing something completely ineffective, people don’t make a habit of acknowledging their errors just because a well-meaning stranger decided to give their input.
hmph.
Would you be willing to put your thoughts re: Cesar to words in a post? Or have you already and I just haven’t found it? We’re considering adding a dog to our family in the near future and I’d love to hear your full opinion.
I don’t know anything about dogs really or these two trainers and their techniques, but Victoria Stillwell’s technique sounds a lot like what I do as a behavior therapist in my work with kids with autism. We use ABA techniques and something called “errorless learning,” so for instance, if a child is going to respond incorrectly to a question or situation, we “prompt” them to do it correctly and reward them for “getting it right” instead of allowing them to do it wrong and punishing them. For many children, they haven’t yet learned to gain enjoyment out of toys or praise or hugs, so we reward them with a food treat, like candy or goldfish or pretzels. This technique has been well-researched and has been successful for many, many children, so I can understand how something similar could translate to animals! This was very interesting for me to read!