I’ve mentioned once or twice or three times that I work with dogs and enjoy working with dogs. I love training my dog, and I love talking to people about dogs. So last month I took this job as a dog walker, thinking, “What could be awesomer than this? I just hang out with dogs outside all day,” and for the first month, it was fantastic. I literally just hung out with dogs for hours and made a little bit of money doing it. Daphne got to come along, and was all tired and relaxed when we got home. Win-win!
After some time, though, I started seeing some things at the dog park that made me uncomfortable. Sometimes it was someone grabbing at a dog that wasn’t theirs, or a dog walker yelling at another dog walker because she didn’t feel the other woman was keeping a close enough eye on her dogs. Occasionally it was the very high number of pinch collars or intact (unneutered) male dogs or an owner’s inability to read regular canine body language.
Daph at the dog park yesterday, demonstrating Hot and Tired canine body language
So then I wrote about how I’m never sure when or whether to step in and say something. For much of my life, I have worked in veterinary hospitals, and in my blue scrubs I am clearly an authority figure; I know what I’m talking about, and people as me for advice. If you think just wearing blue scrubs is not enough to make me an authority (many people easily accept that scrubs=knowledge), I should also mention that I have been reading canine behavior books for years, attending conferences, and talking to the actual experts about issues I’ve seen. I’m not saying I know everything, but I am saying I have a pretty solid knowledge base.
Many of you responded to that post by saying that you would not step in; you would not say anything, and I shouldn’t either, because people wouldn’t hear it the way I meant it or because it’s none of my business or because you as a dog owner would be offended if a stranger offered unsolicited dog training advice. And all of that makes sense to me, those all seem like good reasons to not say anything. And then yesterday I tweeted about some more dog park experiences:
I was surprised by how many people responded on Twitter, saying that they had never seen such terrible behavior, that they were shocked that happened, that this was clearly inappropriate. You guys! THIS IS WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT.
I know I didn’t respond to all of your thoughtful and interesting comments back when I first wrote the post, because I wanted to also be thoughtful and have good things to say… but I got overwhelmed and instead buried my head in the various boxes that are still scattered around our house. I will try to go and do that now, while I am on a roll with the writing and ranting and raving thing. In the meantime, here is a little bit about what I saw, and why it is wrong:
What happened, part 1: First, a small dog came in with its regular dog walker and regular group of dogs (many dogwalkers, including me, take a group of 2-5 dogs into the fenced in park where they all play; most of the dogs know each other since they are usually there at the same time every day.). It started barking at another dog. The dog walker first yelled its name, grabbed its collar and dragged it to her feet, made it sit (at this point, the dog’s tail is between its legs), and once it was sitting, she blew aggressively in its face while the dog struggled to get away.
Why that’s not okay: first, you should not call a dog over to punish it – this will make it reluctant to come to you. Second, if you punish it once you’ve called it over, it associates the punishment to coming when called, not to the behavior you don’t like. In this situation, it seemed that the dog was being punished for sitting; there’s nothing that tied its barking to the blowing in the face.
this human behavior makes dogs sad
What happened, part 2: Okay, this should really be part 1, because it happened last week to the same dog, with another dogwalker in the same company. The dog barked, the walker had the dog sit, and then the other walker with her sprayed it in the face with a water bottle. Not okay because, again, the dog just got in trouble for sitting. No wonder the dog keeps barking, it has no idea there’s a problem! And honestly I’m surprised the dog still sits for anyone.
What happened, part 3: A woman came into the park with a very, very shy boxer puppy. This puppy was about six months old and was slinking along the ground, wagging her tail. She was slinking up to other dogs and trying to play but was very nervous/shy and really was just glued to the ground. Every time she approached a dog and started to engage with it, the owner yelled (angrily!), “Fiona! GENTLE! GENTLE!” If the puppy really started to play, the owner grabbed her collar and dragged her away. Anytime the dog was more than ten feet away from the owner, the owner yelled (again, sounding angry), “COME, Fiona. Fiona, come! Gentle! Fiona, come!”
Why that’s not okay: Well, first, the dog was playing just fine! And she’s never going to learn how to interact with other dogs appropriately if every time she tries she gets dragged away or she gets in trouble. AND, the likelihood of a dog coming when you yell its name angrily is pretty low – what’s in it for the dog? Not much, it seems. Plus, the more times you yell something and it’s not connected with an action or behavior, the less likely a dog is to understand what it means. For example, this poor dog probably has no idea that when her owner says “gentle,” she wants the dog to play more gently (even though the dog was trying to play just fine); the dog probably thinks “gentle” means “I’m about to drag you away from your new dog friend,” and of course that is not appealing.
Daphne demonstrates a good sit and a goofy face (image by Bette Yip)
In case you’re wondering, I did not step in on a single one of these interactions. What would I say? If people ask, then I respond, but if I’m standing around biting my tongue, I would rather just walk away, and take my dogs with me. Maybe someone will ask, “Why don’t you want them to play?” and then I could say something about letting dogs be dogs…
Has anyone else seen this kind of behavior? Is this new information to people? If this was you and you didn’t realize that this dog behavior is fine or this human behavior isn’t, would you want someone to say something to you?
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I’m with you on this one. I hate going to the dog park, and we’ve had to stop going because other dog owners don’t seem to understand dog behaviors and our dog is just too on edge there because of it. I’m a total wimp, so I probably still wouldn’t say anything if I were you, though I would really want to!
Sorry it took me forever to respond to this! But exactly to your whole comment! I finally quit this job in part because I just can’t stand going 2-3 times a day every day and spending so much time getting quietly frustrated.
Wow, I am so sad that you have had to endure these bad experiences! We must have just lucked out with an especially good dog park in our area, because I rarely, RARELY see anything troublesome – except for a few choice days in the summe when everyone and their brother feels the need to bring their poorly socialized dogs. (Winter at the dog park = amazingness)
But I would most definitely say somethingin these situations. That’s how you ensure good owner behavior – you don’t have to be mean, some people are just ignorant and need some teaching! In fact, there is a huge sign on the gate at our park that says “Gentle Peer Pressure is the Key to Good Dog Ownership and Good Dog Park Experiences”
It may also be because I spend so much time there – 2-3 hours a day is enough time to see a lot of people come and go, and a lot of interesting interactions happen…
I love that sign! I wish we had it here.
Whenever I see someone getting on their dog for playing too rough, I’ll usually jump in and say, “Oh, she’s fine” if the dog is playing with my dog. People don’t understand that dogs will yelp or cry if the play is too rough, but 99% of the time what looks like fighting is just playing!
I see the same thing in the opposite direction, where a dog is clearly unfit for the dog park because he’s way too aggressive. The walker just sort of lazily shoos the dog away, even though he keeps pinning my poor lucy to the corner, where she’s crying and screaming (seriously, it was the scariest noise I’ve ever heard her make…).
I’ve also seen this dog walker come to the park with a small puppy who is on a retractable leash, and he lets the dog run all over on the leash (which is several feet long). But at the dog park, having 10 feet of leash stretching across is dangerous for the other dogs! He won’t take the dog off-leash because “the owners don’t want him to.” Well, then take the dog for a damn walk and don’t bring her to the park! These dogs could break bones tripping over a taught leash like that!
I always get involved if the incident is affecting MY dog, because then I feel like I’m allowed … but you’re right, I don’t say anything if Lucy isn’t involved, because I feel weird about it. Ugh…
Oh, that’s interesting, Lauren! I haven’t seen too much of that in the Somerville Park, though I’ve heard of it in the Cambridge park. I usually will say something if one of my dogs is involved, but if it’s someone else’s dog I bite my tongue unless they ask for help.
Keeping a dog on any sort of leash in a park just seems stupid to me… dogs are so funny with being on leash or seeing other dogs on leash; some that are fine in parks are aggressive if either they or the other dog is on leash. It just seems like a disaster waiting to happen – and especially a retractable leash! Ugh.
sometimes I wish people who were really good dog trainers could wear signs so I recognize them and can grill them for tips! haha. I am good with dogs, I do research as much as I can, but I am totally clueless about some things – like how to get my dog to stop barking at the dog park. I don’t call him over and punish him for sitting! I usually get him away from the pack and have him sit and just calm down for a little bit, and then I let him go. That usually works for a period of time and then he gets worked up and starts again (not always, just in certain play dynamics when he’s basically the 3rd wheel, I think he barks because he wants in on it?). Barking dogs make the neighborhood mad so I don’t want us to get kicked out! Any tips on discouraging barking?
As for getting unsolicited dog training advice, I think when it’s delivered the right way I am usually interested in hearing it. For example, if my dog is trying to jump on you in greeting, and you know how to get him to stop, and you want to give me some tips, I’m all ears. HowEVer, if you take it upon yourself to physically handle my dog in a more aggressive way than I think is appropriate, I’m going to hate that (we have a lady in our community who once held brady’s head down almost to the ground and started yelling at him in french!! not like). BUT. If you thought I was doing something actually harmful to my dog, I like to think I’d listen. I might be grumpy about being called out but ultimately I don’t want to hurt my dog!
It’s tough when you’re talking about dog walkers, who might think they are actually experts in dog handling. If you are close enough to be able to sort of strike up a conversation and comment on how he’s such a good puppy and look how he’s trying to figure out how to play. And how other dogs will help him figure things out. Maybe more subtle comments are better than straight up calling out a person for doing something wrong?
oh yes also I am with Kerry on being taken aback by this stuff happening at your dog park. I guess we don’t often go during the day when there might be dog walkers with groups of dogs like that. 98% of the time, it’s the dog owners with their one or sometimes two dogs. and most of the time everyone seems pretty cool and smart with dogs, I never see anyone that clueless about dog behavior/training.
It sounds like you’re doing the right thing! My dog also does some “3rd wheel barking” – if 2 dogs are playing and she wants in, she just follows them and barks. Usually, I’ll try to grab her, give her a minute of time out away from the other dogs, and then let her play again.
What you’re saying makes sense! I have been approached a few times, and that’s been really gratifying…
thanks! that’s good to know. also, funny, after I said that about never seeing behavior like that in dog parks.. I have been seeing more and more clueless people! is springtime when people get new puppies? seeing a lot more puppies lately. I saw basically that exact thing play out the other day, where the puppy is trying to figure out how to play and interact, and doing a fine job, but the owner kept yelling at her and pulling her away from the other dogs.
I feel your pain now, I didn’t feel like I could say anything but it was a little upsetting.
The main reason I don’t love the dog park by us is because it is always PACKED. So, I prefer to go first thing in the morning or later at night.
That said, I haven’t really noticed much behavior by the humans that you’re describing. It makes me really sad! What I might do is keep my eye out for the owners at the park in the future where I would then take them aside and explain what you’ve witnessed from the dog walker. Good luck!!
That’s a good idea! I thought about leaving something on Yelp, too, but I sort of know the dog walkers… ah well.
Witnessed the same thing at our dog park yesterday. Then the two year old girl went chasing after the “duppies! duppies! Play!” And the dad YELLED at her, called her naughty and spanked her (lightly) on the bottom. Um, not naughty–normal!
Hey–do you have any knowledge about introducing babies to dogs, or would it be okay if I emailed you? I’ve done a bit of googling, but all the things I seem to find are about pregnancy and we’re adopting. Maybe you have another resource? It was just on my mind today, and then I read your post.
That’s AWFUL. How about telling your kid, “Why don’t you ask to pet the dog first?” Ew.
Definitely email me! I’d love to chat about it!
As a human behavior analyst, I feel your pain. It’s so hard not to jump in!
So interested in talking to you about this more!
ugh, sad! we don’t go to the dog park often (i am not really a fan), but we went this weekend, and there wasn’t really any bad behavior (human or canine) to speak of. but there is a new sign on the gate that pit bulls and pit mixes are not allowed. which makes me *fume!* doesn’t affect my dopey pups, but it just makes my blood boil.
anyhow, don’t know what to say about most of that ’cause it’s so hard to approach any of that, but for situation #3, i think you can kind of passively address it if that dog is trying to play with *your* dog, by emphasizing how really okay you are with it, and “look, my dog is so happy that your dog wants to play and is being *perfectly nice*”
i definitely tend to do that as a reassurance to overprotective owners. it doesn’t address the bad training, but it might allow her to loosen up a little. and i appreciate that sort of theing from other folks as well – dog has come to growl whenever he is playing and having fun. at the park, i always make him stop ( i just go get him) because i don’t want to piss off the other people by him looking mean and me looking to not care, but i feel like a jerk ’cause i know he’s just being playful. so, i appreciate being given “permission” by the other dog’s person to let them play like dogs.
Ugh, I hate all the breed generalizations. Even yesterday, a puggle attacked a pit, and the pit just wagged his tail and tried to move away. Not the smartest dogs, but very low key. And then the puggle’s owner said, “Buddy, that is the WORST dog you could pick a fight with!” and that got me all twitchy – because he DID pick a fight and the pit just stood there. Sigh.
I’ve had a Doberman enter my life (she not mine, but I ended up being one of her primary caregivers when her owner moved to Hawaii, and Roxy wasn’t able to go with him due to her back problems and the long flight/quarantine). She is a very sweet and affectionate and generally well behaved, but she is also totally skittish and scared of most other dogs. She was never leash-trained, so she is a nightmare to walk on leash, but she does very well with verbal commands. I can’t take her on a walk off-leash however, because people are terrified of her and will not stand for her to be unleashed in public. (Even on leash, people will cross over to the other side of the street, blocks away from us, physically shield their children, get in a defensive stance and shout at Roxy “get away! down! back! sit!” — when she is just nosing along sniffing the sidewalk!!)
So, I take her to the dog park as often as possible, where it is okay for her to be off-leash, and people are generally calmer around her (being dog people, and all). We try to stick to ourselves at the dog park, though I do encourage her to say hello to other dogs and then walk away (I verbally guide her through these interactions, and they usually end with her running to hide behind me while I pet the other dog and then tell him/her to go see somebody else). When some dogs are really aggressive about wanting to play with Roxy, I can see her getting very anxious/scared and she has snapped in the past – barring teeth and growling, lunging and snipping, and generally earning her “terrifying Doberman” reputation. Obviously, I don’t want that to happen, ever.
I can see it quite clearly when Roxy is getting uncomfortable (when he situation is getting unsafe), but getting other dog owners to understand that they need to remove their dog from this situation is often DIFFICULT! Some people’s idea of what dog play is/should be is overly “nice” – like the woman who kept yelling “gentle!” when the dog was playing just fine. And some people’s idea of dog play is overly “aggressive” where the dogs might actually be fighting, but people will wave it off and say “oh, they’re just playing.” That irritates the hell out of me, because both are unfair and detrimental to the dog. However, I am learning to appreciate that dog play looks different to different dogs (not just their owners), and some dog walkers may not be attuned to other dogs’ styles and cues. So now, not only do I talk Roxy through meet-and-greets, I also narrate the interaction to the other dog-walker so they know what’s going on for Roxy, before things get out of hand. (I know, I am starting to sound like a crazy dog lady. I also occasionally take care of a deaf and blind Australian Shepherd, and have to do the same thing with him.)
I guess my point is that “my” dog is one of those not-well-socialized creatures who populates the dog park, but knowing that, I am super vigilant and pro-active about keeping everybody comfortable and happy. Just because other dog owners have well-behaved or well-socialized dogs does not mean they are off the hook for monitoring their dog’s interactions (and they should do it calmly, not angrily or in a panic). Is that too much to ask?
Some of the human behaviors you described are appalling. I definitely think it’s okay for you to talk to the other owner/walker about the dog’s behavior as it is affecting you/your dog(s). To the woman to kept insisting on “gentler” play, I think it’d be helpful for her to hear “Wow, it looks like they’re having fun. My dog loves playing like that” etc, to help the owner learn what kind of play is acceptable in that situation.
Sorry for the super long rant, I also have a lot of feelings about dog park social dynamics.
Yay, you have a dog! I would love to be a fly on the wall while you are narrating to the dog… but I imagine it’s helpful for other people to hear that you, the owner, are calm and know what’s going on and are in control. And this is an excellent point: “Just because other dog owners have well-behaved or well-socialized dogs does not mean they are off the hook for monitoring their dog’s interactions (and they should do it calmly, not angrily or in a panic).” I feel like everyone should just KNOW that. But, of course, not everyone does.
Wow, those examples make me cringe. I would agree with others who suggest using gentle suggestions to hopefully get advice across in a friendly and non-confrontational way, like saying “my dog loves playing like that.”
The dog park we go to is luckily fantastic (though maybe that’ll change in the summer when everyone comes out) and the only awful instance I witnessed was a matter of a poorly socialized human rather than a dog: his dog was playing with a larger dog, and the larger dog let out a little growl. Basic dog communication, nothing at all concerning, in fact I barely noticed it. But the owner of the smaller dog went up the larger dog’s owner and said if his dog growls again, he would kick it. He literally threatened the dog. The owner of the larger dog immediately left and so did we, and made a mental note to always leave when he is there.
That’s awful! I think that most of the issues are human-created, which means they’re fixable, but also that there can be a lot of socially uncomfortable situations. Sigh.
I am a dog novice so I just don’t feel qualified to give advice yet. I am ambivalent about getting unsolicited advice though since I am so new to this dog ownership thing that I honestly have trouble always knowing what’s good advice and what’s not- although even I know not to do the things you are describing! Because of my ignorance, I try to actively seek out advice from sources I can trust (your blog being one of those sources) rather than listen to tips from people I don’t know, but it doesn’t bother me when people suggesting things and I do follow up and look into the things people tell me. I am sure people at the dog park think I am ignoring their advice but really I just want to go home and do some research before I try something with my dog I am not sure of. I am with ddayporter on making dog experts wear signs identifying themselves. Although then I wouldn’t leave them alone (it takes a tremendous amount of restraint to not email you a billion dog questions!).
Karen, I need to respond to your email! I haven’t forgotten, I promise.
I feel like I comment on all of your dog posts! As a behaviorist, I have the same feeling when I see parents disciplining their kids. I would never say anything unless I thought the child to be in danger.
Could you strike up a conversation with the walkers you’ve seen doing these things (since it seems like you see them a lot)? Then I would slip in the “advice” in the context of “this is what works for me.” Like “Oh, I noticed you were having trouble with your beagle barking – my dog Max used to do the same thing. I found that doing x and y and z REALLY helped up with that issue.”
If you see repeated issues that worry you though, could you try to find out what agency they work for and report the incident to the manager via email or phone?
I’ve done that a couple of times, I think I need to find a way to be a little less apologetic and a little more assertive while still being friendly. And the dog walkers in question ARE the managers, which sucks. Or at least is married to the manager. I guess I just need to make a note not to recommend them.
Just googled “I hate dog parks” and found this. I will drag myself to the dog park because it’s good exercise for my dog and because my girlfriend complains if I don’t take her, but I hate them too. My dog ( a year old Akita) likes to wrestle and play rough. I’m fine with this, but I acknowledge that some owners are not, and I’m very uneasy when she decides to wrestle with a dog she hasn’t before, because some owners just don’t get it. I don’t want to deal with confrontation, and it gets stressful when it turns out the owner IS high strung, and I have to now play “keep Mocha away from this dog that has a mutual interest in playing”. It’s difficult and not fun.
Also, you have aggressive dogs, crazy people who chase their dog around and scream at it because it’s trying to play, inattentive owners, chihuahuas who are likely to be trampled, and it’s just not fun.
Hi I know this is an old post and definitely apologies for this rant but I wanted to a least comment about hating dog parks too – especially poor maintained residential ones that were approved by Parks, Recreation and Forestry in Toronto and respective ward councillors who don’t seem to understand the nature of them. The dog association groups who made the application to forced placed of them anywhere, promised that they will would work with the communities to ensure that responsible dog ownership would be apparent. Unfortunately, a divide has happened between very responsible (or at least that ones who make the effort) dog owners and the ones who think a dog is a toy , a notch of societal status, social magnet and everything else but. However, I’ve seen and heard about really irresponsible dog owners that would warrant a removal of certain inapprorpriately placed dog parks or at the very least better enforcement. There have been dog fights, uncontrollable excessive barking during various times of the day and night, non-pooper scoopers, allowing a very sick dog with diarrhea roam uncomfortably around the park, dumping the dogs in the enclosed off leash area so they can take off and do something else for awhile (e.g. hanging out in a van, go shopping, visit a friend etc.) dog owners running away towards all exits when a man was bitten, a child broke a limb in there, a lady was ignored pleading for help when her dog was being attacked, a man training his dog to jump in and out of the fence regardless if small children were passing by, in one of the parks a few dogs were already maimed and killed etc, etc. These regular dog park visitors in those particular parks just don’t care as most pretend they are at an outdoor Starbucks and ignore their dogs, and the ones who play with them don’t make the effort to train them properly. There have been stories of affected communities (many who are dog owners themselves) complaining to animals services, the police and those responsible for these poorly planned and maintained dog parks. They have been told that animal services and police/by-law enforcers are too understaffed with enforcement restrictions and that Parks, Recreation, and Forestry, the ward councillors and the dog group associations should address such concerns. Some community members actually did step in to politely suggest a few things and they were really verbally assauted because of that, along with a few threats of physical violence.
The city should have kept and better maintained already existing dog parks that seem to be ok rather than add more just for the sake of completing a pilot project and the ward councillors finding an angle to fish for votes. So it is understandable why more and more responsible dog owners would avoid certain dog parks.
Better late than never – thanks for your comment! I can’t believe people actually drop their dogs off and go on other errands; that’s awful! I was just thinking today about how I had been really enjoying going to dog parks with my puppy, but I’ve noticed that as she’s getting older, she prefers dogs she knows to ones she doesn’t. Maybe planned playdates are better than mass meetings? I can see how the interaction with other dog owners would appeal to some people, but I also think there are a lot of people who take dogs to the park when their dogs don’t enjoy or benefit from it. That said, it can be really wonderful for socializing puppies!